Submission and Culture
"Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored." ~ Titus 2:3-5
When reading this passage last week, that very last phrase stood out to me. Paul wanted young women to be subject to their own husbands, among other things, for the reason that the word of God would not be dishonored. Flipping that around, the word of God would be dishonored if they weren't subject.
How would it be dishonored? Who's doing the dishonoring? People inside the church, or outside? It could be a little of both, because those inside are dishonoring it by not following it, but the next three verses suggest that it might be referring to those outside the church:
"Likewise urge the young men to be sensible; in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us." ~ Titus 2:6-8
In that case, it would be a source of dishonor if the wife is not in subjection to her husband. Quite opposite from what is common in American culture today.
But this also made me think: One of the common arguments I've heard against the head covering is that that was just a cultural practice of that era, in that area. However, the Bible says that the head covering was a display of Christian women showing themselves under authority, particularly their subjection to the men of the church.
"Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you. But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God." ~ 1 Corinthians 11:2-12
While I'm sure that it is out there, I haven't heard nearly so many arguments that wives should not have to be in subjection to their husbands on a cultural basis. The head covering is much more common target with that argument in my experience. But both the head covering and women's subjection to men (especially to their husbands) are rooted in part in the same matter:
"A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression." ~ I Timothy 2:11-14
Both stem from the order of creation. That's not a cultural basis. If you try to throw out one with that argument, it stands to reason that the other goes with it. They are ideas and practices that are tied together. Yes, part of the reason for wives' submission has a cultural basis, in the way that those outside the church view us, but that is not the only reason. We are supposed to stand out from the world. And probably wives in the world weren't submissive in that time either. After all, there's nothing new under the sun.
When reading this passage last week, that very last phrase stood out to me. Paul wanted young women to be subject to their own husbands, among other things, for the reason that the word of God would not be dishonored. Flipping that around, the word of God would be dishonored if they weren't subject.
How would it be dishonored? Who's doing the dishonoring? People inside the church, or outside? It could be a little of both, because those inside are dishonoring it by not following it, but the next three verses suggest that it might be referring to those outside the church:
"Likewise urge the young men to be sensible; in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us." ~ Titus 2:6-8
In that case, it would be a source of dishonor if the wife is not in subjection to her husband. Quite opposite from what is common in American culture today.
But this also made me think: One of the common arguments I've heard against the head covering is that that was just a cultural practice of that era, in that area. However, the Bible says that the head covering was a display of Christian women showing themselves under authority, particularly their subjection to the men of the church.
"Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you. But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God." ~ 1 Corinthians 11:2-12
While I'm sure that it is out there, I haven't heard nearly so many arguments that wives should not have to be in subjection to their husbands on a cultural basis. The head covering is much more common target with that argument in my experience. But both the head covering and women's subjection to men (especially to their husbands) are rooted in part in the same matter:
"A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression." ~ I Timothy 2:11-14
Both stem from the order of creation. That's not a cultural basis. If you try to throw out one with that argument, it stands to reason that the other goes with it. They are ideas and practices that are tied together. Yes, part of the reason for wives' submission has a cultural basis, in the way that those outside the church view us, but that is not the only reason. We are supposed to stand out from the world. And probably wives in the world weren't submissive in that time either. After all, there's nothing new under the sun.
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You are so right about the importance of submission! It's not an easy task for women, especially in our current culture. Women have always had trouble submitting, just as a lot of men have trouble being a leader. I've been amazed, though, at how an attitude of submission from the woman causes the man to step into his role better. -
I think the difference in understanding the head-covering centers around the question raised by v 15: "For her hair is given to her for a covering."
Also there is a question as to whether Paul is talking about wives, not women in general.
I remain torn on this issue, and it may be that as I study and consider it further, you may indeed find me veiled.
What I have little regard for is the doily popped on the head for worship only. (A) That is not a covering and (B) If we believe this is a requirement, then we really must do it all the time, because we are to pray continuously and be in submission to our husband at all times.
What troubles me even more: The utter lack of femininity among so many, including Christian women. Short hair (voluntarily -- some have little choice) with shaved necks, big ugly men's t-shirts, hoodies, jeans, gym shoes. Yes, you can wear a unisex hoodie, but ladies, if there is little or nothing about your appearance that would be inappropriate for a man, if you are modeling a hair cut popular with lesbians, then I really suggest that you reconsider what you're wearing. We want to be modest, but we want to be distinctly female, too. -
You can get my thoughts on those questions in my post on the subject I made nearly 4 years ago. Be aware that it would be about 9.5 pages long if you printed it. I went into a bit of detail with it, and compiled a lot of other view on the matter, too.
I will definitely agree with you about the lack of femininity among Christian women being troubling. And those on the other end of the spectrum who display too much. -
David's sin with Bathsheba caused the nations around to blaspheme the God David claimed to serve. God demanded purity, and David wasn't living up to it. Today, the wife who is not in submission to the one God has put over her will cause our neighbors to blaspheme the God we claim to serve. The world knows God commands it. And they can recognize rebellion in our marriages and homes when they see it.
Friday while we were leaning into the wind in Lubbock, we passed through a small area with no wind, and I DID feel like I was going to fall down! -
Haha! I like it! You should write like that more often! ;) -
Displaying too much is *not* feminine, it's just trashy :)
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As for the dipping of peanut butter balls, you are too lofty (suggesting that I think of the pleasure they will give others). I was thinking more along the lines of "dip two, eat one, dip three, eat one, etc" -- ha ha ha.
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HAHAHAHAH!!! -
^^^ Quite true. But too many people don't think that way.
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Thank you! :)
Back From Oklahoma.
Wednesday, we left to go to Uncle Glenn's in Oklahoma. We got there with a bit of time before church, but not enough to go down to Glenn's and back, so we just ate and waited a couple minutes. After the study, during which more family arrived, we all caravaned to Glenn's house. Their new house is very nice, and they've been doing a huge amount of remodeling to it. It also has plenty of space, so, though we had 19 people there, it was not particularly crowded.
For Thanksgiving Dinner (Probably one of the few exceptions to or referring to the evening meal as dinner, and the midday on as lunch.), Glenn cooked the turkey in a smoker. Definitely better than doing it in the oven, though still not quite on par with Mother's slow cooker method. And, of course, we had Aunt's Cyndy's exceptional rolls. Thanksgiving and Christmas just would not be the same without those. We also had a whole lot of other dishes that were all tasty (At least for those I can attest to. I don't like several things that were there. :P).
After dinner, many of us went out to see one of the sites of the region: old Viking carvings in some stones in the region. We also went out to a lake nearby and played on an unusual playground, with things that are designed to make you dizzy and be fairly difficult to stop. I was having fun analyzing the physics behind them.
Friday, Uncle Steve and Aunt Janine, and their granddaughter left, and several people went out shopping. Glenn and Phoebe went to visit one of the members of their congregation who was in the hospital and not recovering and to say some prayers and such, before they cut the life support according to her wishes. Another death of a faithful Christian. While they were all off doing that, Dad, Didymus and I went out hiking. Overall, we had a relatively boring hike, on a rough trail with only a couple particularly scenic spots. Just a walk through the woods on a mountainside for about 8.5 miles, though the last 2.5 to 3 miles of that we walked along the road, because Dad was getting too tired to do the very rough and narrow hiking/mountain bike trail. I must have stressed the arch of my foot in there somewhere, because after we got back to Glenn's, for most of the rest of the trip it hurt a bit to walk on it.
Saturday, Uncle Eddie and Aunt Cyndy and their girls left, along with the grandparents. The rest of us spent most of the day playing games and such.
Sunday, they asked Dad to do the preaching, and Didymus and I to do the songleading, since they only have one songleader, and his voice was doing very well. They're building may have had really good acoustics to it, except that whoever built it had the really bad idea of covering the entire ceiling in sound deadening tiles. It made it a lot harder on our voices, because we can't judge how loud we're singing very well, so Dad, Didymus and I all wore our voices out slightly. It made me think more about how blessed we are here at home, with a dozen or more capable songleaders and a build that's well designed for singing. It was nice to give Glenn's congregation a change in singing. :)
Monday, we headed back home, with the only even to the trip being going through some snow, which wasn't sticking, so it didn't affect driving. Just looked beautiful. :)
Group games played on the trip:
Boggle
Rummikub
Upwords
Phase 10 (Though I didn't take part in the second pair, because some of us were playing the aforementioned pair at the time.)
Mexican Train
Crazy 8's
Acquire
Carcasonne (On Glenn's IPad. It was quite well designed, but I still prefer the physical game.)
Really, an unusually small amount, for our family. But the uncles were preoccupied with genealogy research a lot of the time. They did find some interesting connections, such as Aunt Cyndy being 7th cousins with her mother-in-law.
All in all, an enjoyable trip. =)
I hope you all had an enjoyable Thanksgiving!
For Thanksgiving Dinner (Probably one of the few exceptions to or referring to the evening meal as dinner, and the midday on as lunch.), Glenn cooked the turkey in a smoker. Definitely better than doing it in the oven, though still not quite on par with Mother's slow cooker method. And, of course, we had Aunt's Cyndy's exceptional rolls. Thanksgiving and Christmas just would not be the same without those. We also had a whole lot of other dishes that were all tasty (At least for those I can attest to. I don't like several things that were there. :P).
After dinner, many of us went out to see one of the sites of the region: old Viking carvings in some stones in the region. We also went out to a lake nearby and played on an unusual playground, with things that are designed to make you dizzy and be fairly difficult to stop. I was having fun analyzing the physics behind them.
Friday, Uncle Steve and Aunt Janine, and their granddaughter left, and several people went out shopping. Glenn and Phoebe went to visit one of the members of their congregation who was in the hospital and not recovering and to say some prayers and such, before they cut the life support according to her wishes. Another death of a faithful Christian. While they were all off doing that, Dad, Didymus and I went out hiking. Overall, we had a relatively boring hike, on a rough trail with only a couple particularly scenic spots. Just a walk through the woods on a mountainside for about 8.5 miles, though the last 2.5 to 3 miles of that we walked along the road, because Dad was getting too tired to do the very rough and narrow hiking/mountain bike trail. I must have stressed the arch of my foot in there somewhere, because after we got back to Glenn's, for most of the rest of the trip it hurt a bit to walk on it.
Saturday, Uncle Eddie and Aunt Cyndy and their girls left, along with the grandparents. The rest of us spent most of the day playing games and such.
Sunday, they asked Dad to do the preaching, and Didymus and I to do the songleading, since they only have one songleader, and his voice was doing very well. They're building may have had really good acoustics to it, except that whoever built it had the really bad idea of covering the entire ceiling in sound deadening tiles. It made it a lot harder on our voices, because we can't judge how loud we're singing very well, so Dad, Didymus and I all wore our voices out slightly. It made me think more about how blessed we are here at home, with a dozen or more capable songleaders and a build that's well designed for singing. It was nice to give Glenn's congregation a change in singing. :)
Monday, we headed back home, with the only even to the trip being going through some snow, which wasn't sticking, so it didn't affect driving. Just looked beautiful. :)
Group games played on the trip:
Boggle
Rummikub
Upwords
Phase 10 (Though I didn't take part in the second pair, because some of us were playing the aforementioned pair at the time.)
Mexican Train
Crazy 8's
Acquire
Carcasonne (On Glenn's IPad. It was quite well designed, but I still prefer the physical game.)
Really, an unusually small amount, for our family. But the uncles were preoccupied with genealogy research a lot of the time. They did find some interesting connections, such as Aunt Cyndy being 7th cousins with her mother-in-law.
All in all, an enjoyable trip. =)
I hope you all had an enjoyable Thanksgiving!
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Glad you had such an enjoyable trip!
We LOVE some of those games (Rummikub's a favorite of Andrew's and mine, I love Mexican Train even though I've only played a couple of times, and my Mom was an UNBEATABLE Master Boggle player). There are actually a couple that I've never played (Acquire and Carcasonne). -
What a terrific family get-together! And thanks for dinner/lunch comment--you know how confusing that can be for some of us. :-)
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Ah, enjoyed hearing about it all. I have not played most of those games. Which are your top couple favs?
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We have our weekly bible study on Thursday night so Thanksgiving is all about eating. I love finishing our day with praise and songs.
We love games and had a group over here on Sunday to play - us older ones played Quirkle. Have you played it. -
Wow. The old Viking carvings sound really neat! -
You should pick one or a few based on what you *have* seen and don't think twice about what you haven't seen! Just resolve to see them at some point! -
The birth month and day for two of our grandchildren are 9/10 and 11/12. It makes them easier to remember!
We Now Officially Have a Chick-Fil-A Less Than a Mile from Our House.
Which also means that there are full service Chick-Fil-A's in Nebraska now.
We walked over there for dinner last night, i.e. opening night, which was a lot better idea than driving would have been, since traffic was backed up probably close to a quarter mile, most all of it going to Chick-Fil-A. We waited in line (which stretched outside a good ways.) for a while, got little stuffed cows bearing "Eat mor Chikin" signs and got a tasty meal. Or two. We're pretty certain that they managed to give us someone else's order the first time, and they can't take it back after it's passed the counter, so we were told to keep it, and they gave us the proper order... almost. They gave us a couple more things of fries than we'd asked for. All told, I think we came home with 6 extra chicken sandwiches. :P
It is pretty impressive how well they were managing that much traffic though. They have a double drive-thru, and they had someone out there directing traffic, and they had some people passing out menus to the people in line, and writing their orders down, so they could just hand the paper to the cashiers to ring up. I wouldn't be surprised if they had 30+ employees working.
Chick-Fil-A is yummy.
We walked over there for dinner last night, i.e. opening night, which was a lot better idea than driving would have been, since traffic was backed up probably close to a quarter mile, most all of it going to Chick-Fil-A. We waited in line (which stretched outside a good ways.) for a while, got little stuffed cows bearing "Eat mor Chikin" signs and got a tasty meal. Or two. We're pretty certain that they managed to give us someone else's order the first time, and they can't take it back after it's passed the counter, so we were told to keep it, and they gave us the proper order... almost. They gave us a couple more things of fries than we'd asked for. All told, I think we came home with 6 extra chicken sandwiches. :P
It is pretty impressive how well they were managing that much traffic though. They have a double drive-thru, and they had someone out there directing traffic, and they had some people passing out menus to the people in line, and writing their orders down, so they could just hand the paper to the cashiers to ring up. I wouldn't be surprised if they had 30+ employees working.
Chick-Fil-A is yummy.
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Huzzah! -
I had only eaten there once before the big "to do" about the traditional marriage issue. When that happened we went there for dinner once and have been back several times since (usually on Wednesday nights when time is of the essence) because it was So. Good.
You should have seen the one near here on Halloween night, WHOA, it was *packed.* -
CFA is Good Stuff!
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Hooray!
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*jealous* our nearest one is an hour away. :( -
Thanks! :) About the hymn -- I was trying to look up the author's name without success via Google -- now I'm curious too! Not sure why it's not coming up. If you happen to find out, let me know!
Fun! We ate at our first Chick-Fil-A while in PA -- it was on our list of places to visit. ;) -
Is this what you were looking for?
My Only Hope is You
Words and music: John Paul Trimble © 1989 John Paul Trimble
Lyrics here. -
Thanks! :) -
Yes, I've noticed much similarly. :/ It's frustrating. -
Ok thats too much! I think I might sue CFA for having only 1 restaurant in like a 45 minute circle of our house and that 1 is in a mall. -
Cheesecake? Clearly I need to be better friends with you.
And I'm so with you on REAL fudge. -
I love your wish list! Especially the new niece part.
The Niece
The Cousinling
The Sleepy Niece
Chocolate Chip Pancookies
anne
JavaJoeDude
ryan_s
Megalexandros
misssonja
tgatzajr