The Church and Women
One day, when we make it to judgment day, I wonder how men will have to answer for the way they have treated women in the church. I pray that the younger generation of men coming up in the church will be influenced enough by our society in general that they will bring true liberation to the church. (Isn't it a shame that our society treats women better than they get treated in church? It should be the church that leads the way, not the church that is dragged kicking and screaming into this.) Just as the church used (abused) the Bible to justify slavery, they now use it to justify relegating women to second class status in the church. What a pity that so much talent is going wasted and unused. I will pray for the younger men that they will not stay blind for long.
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going back to a previous blog and point you made, 1 Cor. 11 where it talks about praying and all that is not talking about the church assembly. Paul switches to the assembly in vs. 18. -
Jeffh, I noticed you didn't even try to answer my rebuttal of "nothing wrong with slavery". People are not chattels; people are NOT property. We are servants of God alone and His children. Please explain to me how it is following in the footsteps of Christ to own another human being. -
sorry, i didn't see your reply until yesterday. i left that comment and did come back here for a while. when someone is put into slavery, it's because they owe the person a debt they cannot repay. now, it has been abused to where they would just take weaker nations and turn them into slaves, but it makes sense that if someone owes you something, make them work for you to pay off the debt. the bible does not condemn slavery. however, it does tell the masters how to treat their servants
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and how the servants should act towards their masters. read ephesians 6. if all masters treated their slaves like that, i seriously doubt you'd have a problem with slavery.
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"When someone is put into slavery, it's because they owe the person a debt they cannot repay." Jeff, are you of African-American descent? Do you have friends who are of African-American descent? WHAT debt did African tribespeople owe their captors (who, it is admitted, were often as not other tribespeople, sadly) who transported them across an ocean for servitude? To me, it makes more sense to forgive the debt and the debtor rather than to enslave my debtor.
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that's when it is taken too far. originally the slaves were not just african americans (and besides, slavery didn't only exist in the 17-1800's). it was people who had some how gone into debt and there was no way to pay the person back. so they became slaves. it was called endentured slavery. they'd be a slave to the person for like 5 or 10 years or something i think. that's the kind of slavery i'm talking about. not where somebody goes into a foreign land and drags people out. yes, that is
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wrong. but like i just mentioned, the concept of slavery where one pays off a debt by being a slave is alright. today, we just go to jail if we can't pay it off. that's basically slavery too, because you have to work there and you have no rights.
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when i say slavery is ok, i'm not referring to the 17 and 1800's. slavery has been going on since the world began. it was a way of life until the civil war. like i said, ephesians 6 and other passages tell how masters should treat slaves, and slaves masters. if it's done that way, i don't think you'd have a problem with slavery. it's when it is abused that it's a problem.
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btw, i'm not of african american descent, but if i understand correctly, i might be part jewish.
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and i guess i should have said this earlier. it seems like the christians in the New Testament were able to follow in the footsteps of Christ and still own slaves, or else Paul would have commanded the Christians to free all their slaves.
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and while i'm at it, let me make it clear that i do not wish for slavery to come back. i don't want it, but i see nothing wrong with the concept.
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I have heard that Jesus did not come into the world to start a social/political revolution. However, I believe that the more Christ like we become the less we will be able to accept things like slavery. I don't think God ever intended for us to have slaves but just was aware that the world did have them and wrote rules for behavior. I do think endentured slavery was wrong too. That is different from working to pay off a debt.
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I was jsut reading a book last night about "Life in Biblical Times" and it said that the Romans of the first century had endentured servants and they would give them wives and allow them to have families. HOWEVER, the children of these unions "belonged" to the master. So if the slave wanted to remain with his family, he could only do so by agreeing to be a slave for life. I would not be happy in that position so I would hope I would never put another human being into that position either.
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no, Jesus did not come into the world to start a social/political revolution, but if slavery was wrong, it would be condemned in the bible. no, it's not to start a social/political revolution, but if something is being done that violates God's law, then Christians are not to participate in it. the problem with what you said is that you think that. what i said i can give book, chapter and verse for. sorry if what i just said sounded rude, because i don't mean it that way, i just don't know how
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else to say it. i kinda think it's funny how i made a small comment on something mentioned in the post that wasn't even what the post is about, and that's what everybody has been commenting on. haha
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I would like to make a comment about the original point of women and the church. Jesus told us "the greatest among you will be your servant." Matt. 23:11. Shouldn't we be discussing how to be better servants rather than who gets to be the leader? Having said that, I still have questions about women and the church. -
Acts 2;17 and Acts 21:9 refer to women prophesying. How could they prophesy if they could not speak?
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women speak up in and even teach Bible classes. Why is this OK? I have heard it said that it is all right because the whole church is not together. But where do you find that in the Bible? And if they can speak up whenever the whole church is not together, then they can certainly do it almost any time, because it is very seldom that the whole church is together. There is almost always someone missing.
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Why can't women attend business meetings? There is no direct command or necessary inference or approved example of all the men in a congregation (not just the elders and apostles) getting together without all of the women. And what is the difference between attending and speaking up in a Bible class, and attending and speaking up in a business meeting?
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Yes, and why is it okay for us to speak up outside of church, with "unbelievers" but those to whom we have to closest beliefs we cannot speak with? Imagine trying to have this conversation in a church building instead of on a website?
psemmusa