I've heard that a lot before, and especially with this election. Now that the "other" side has won...what are your thoughts now?
God ultimately has His hand in the selection of our leaders. I truly believe that with all my heart. Romans 13 gives good evidence for that belief. The fact is...no matter how many people voted for McCain/Palin... God's will was for Obama's ticket to prevail. No matter how many votes Christian's and even non-Christian's gave for McCain...Obama was going to win because God has a plan for him as our president (whether good or bad).
Can God put someone in office without physical votes? I believe He can. I don't know how, but some how some way...He does it every time. That's hard for us to comprehend because our abilities as humans are so limited. We can only think so far. We don't realize that God works in unrecognizable ways sometimes.
Did you ever stop to consider that God might not want a moral man in the white house? I've asked this before but I'll ask it again, "How do you know God wants you to vote for a moral leader?" I don't think that Obama compares to the evil leaders that the children of Israel or Judah encountered. I don't think he comes close to the evil decisions made by Nebuchadnezzar or the emperor's of the Roman Empire during the time of Christ. Surely, Obama will make some decisions for this country that will corrupt a portion of the little morality this country had. That still doesn't mean that it wasn't God's will. God uses evil men to do as He sees fit. He's done it before and He'll do it again if He chooses.
**Notice I didn't say that you shouldn't vote.** Although, I won't tell you to either. I won't tell you it is your "duty" but I will tell you that it is your "right" if you so choose to do. However, no matter what you choose brethren, God's will shall be done. That is a comforting thought to know that God is in control. Don't always assume you know what God wants to happen. We can only know God's desire if He chooses to tell us in His word. All the other things, we will learn one day when we are all in heaven together.
I kind of have a hard time with the statement "God might not want a moral man in the White House." I think God WANTS moral men everywhere. He gives us the free will to make our own decisions. When someone makes the decision not to follow God, he can still use that person for his purposes. But I wouldn't ever say God doesn't WANT a moral man in the White House. Good thoughts otherwise though.
I guess what I mean is...God might see fit for our nation to be destroyed in the long run. This could be His way of doing it. You are right, I'm sure God wishes everyone was moral and was a Christian. With examples of Nebuchadnezzar and Nero...etc., we know God uses evil men to fulfill His purposes. Hopefully that makes more sense Kevin.
I was just being a little nit-picky I guess :) It's just impossible to view things the same way God does. It's like we are in two dimensions and he is in three and can see things that we will never be able to see. Maybe we (in general) just shouldn't spend too much time thinking about what "God's plan" is for our nation because it's something that we will never understand. We just vote (or not vote) for a government that will allow us to live our lives the easiest way that the Scriptures teach. Quiet and peaceful with the ability to teach as freely as possible.
Just to make myself clear, I'm not saying it's wrong to think about "maybe this is God's way of destroying our nation." Just pointing out that we can only understand and "control" the here and now so that's all we should worry about.
I pretty much agree with you. Especially I agree with the concept that our understanding of God is limited to what He has given us. He truly is so many levels above us that we cannot even fathom the things that He knows. Man discovered electricity...and that seems about as good as it can get. I guarentee there is something out there, some force, some form of energy or something even beyond our knowledge of energy that God could tell you all about one day. I think we agree that while we "think" we may know God's plans and what God would want us to do in certain situations, we can never know unless He tells us in the scriptures. I hope our nation isn't heading towards destruction. Is it a possibility...most definitely. Is it a possibility that McCain would have led us to destruction (in an unrecognizable way), sure it is. Only God knows all the answers.
And I took the road leading to Athens, AL. Karen and I will be moving there at the end of the month. Your prayers would be appreciated as we plan to move and I start a new job. Thanks.
Wow, Kevin... I kind of thought this day might come, but I am a little sad now that it is actually here. Nevertheless, I know it will be a good opportunity for you and Karen. I wish you much happiness and success as you move, brother!
I don't think TSU EdD is online, which I guess is what you are looking for if your moving to Alabama. The closest EdD to Athens that I know of is through UAB (on campus). I know that there are a couple of EdD online programs.
Many would be disgusted with John McCain at this point. Many however have taken the results of the election to say "the world is coming to an end" and "the devil is in the White House". Be careful with your words.
Romans 13 says for us to respect those ruling over us. Why? God has put them there to carry out His purpose. Whether for good or bad, God has put Obama in the White House come January. Do I agree with him on everything? No. Do I agree with John McCain on everything? No. I'm against gay marriage and abortion, but I'm also against the war in Iraq. Let us remember two things:
1) God has put Obama there, and we must at least respect him as our president.
2) No matter what laws change to reflect to changing morals of our society, God's law never does change. We are all still subject to His word before this country's.
While we might not like the way things have turned out, don't whine. Rather than worry about the bad, focus on how to make this country better. Jesus talked about worrying. We know where He stood on that. Just think about that today brethren.
Edit: I'm not saying it's wrong to speak against decisions like instituting gay marriage or abortion, just not the man.
And Kevin, I think I understand your reasoning. Psalms and Proverbs were written for the Old Law. Sure, some of the principles found in those books are good for us to meditate on them, but they have no bearing on the regulations in the NT Church. I don't think you can take Psalms and Proverbs without taking the Torah, etc. At least I understand your reasoning though.
I guess I question how the Psalms and Proverbs were in any way "authoritative" even to the Jews? The Proverbs are obviously not absolutes. "It is better to sit on the corner of a rooftop than in a house with a contentious woman." Did the Jews follow this as Law? Were they sinning if they didn't go out and literally do this? If not, I would say that they used the Psalms and Proverbs exactly the way we do. So what changed?
Well...I was just going to let you give your thoughts Dominic, I don't know everything. I thought by mentioning it, you had some thoughts on it. The NT quotes the OT several times...what's different about this time?
The difference here is that Paul isn't just proving some theological point about God's character or about the nature of sin, here he's using Dt 25:4 apparently as authority for NT practice. I do have thoughts on it, but I just want to make sure you recognize the problem (or if you have a way of reconciling it, let me know).
Just as the story of Nadab and Abihu tells us that God does not approve when we do not follow his instructions, the Psalms show us God DOES approve of instruments in connection to praise to Him. The Psalms aren't Law but show us about God. David's psalms about dependance on God show us that we too need to place our trust on him. The applications are there. Does this mean that psalms like psalms 149 and 159 have absolutely no relevance to us now? If they do, what is it because they pretty much just talk about praising God with instruments.
Again, I'm not trying to push the topic of instruments. I don't even use them with the congregation that I assemble with. I see many reasons for someone to make a personal decision about their use or non-use. But I just don't think the SCRIPTURAL arguments are there. I think the ones that are used are weak and somewhat taken out of context.
Because of this, I personally use everything available to me to make my decision. I look at the historical record. I look at my own conscience as well as those whom I assemble with. And I look at the Bible. Frankly, I have come to the conclusion that I just don't think God cares one way or another about this issue.
I don't agree with everything you have said Kevin, but based on your reasoning, could you not even see the wisdom of taking the safer side? I personally don't use that logic, I don't think the fact that they were accepted under the Old Law makes them acceptable in the New. Even if you think they "might" be accepted or that God might not care, would you not agree that it would be better not to? Again, I feel this issue is a little clearer cut than that, but even with your reasoning, I would still stay to that side.
If we took the logic of "staying on the safer side of the issues" we would do a whole lot of things differently. We should ALL greet each other with a "holy kiss" because the "safest" thing to do is just to do what the Scripture says and not try and try to "explain" why it isn't necessary. The "safe side" is how the Pharisees viewed most things (I AM NOT SAYING ANYONE IS A PHARISEE!!) They wanted to be absolutely sure that they did no work on the Sabbath so they tried to define every possible "work" situation. The "safe" thing would be just to stay in your house and not get up.
If you feel like the "safe side" is the way to handle something then by all means, do what your conscience permits. Those who would not eat meat sacrificed to idols were taking the "safe side." But God did not institute a new "law" where we have to be wary that we are doing everything precisely as he instructed. Because I don't think he gave us many specifics about how to do something. We are under SO MUCH MORE LIBERTY than the Jews were under so in my mind, to constantly subject ourselves to the "safe side" is taking away the liberty God has given us.
Where God has given me instructions, I believe we need to follow those, no doubt about it. But I know I'm probably not doing EVERYTHING right in regards to "worship and service." I'm trying to do it all right. I'm studying to understand everything I can. But I have absolute faith that God's mercy and grace will cover my human error. I am NOT saved based on getting EVERYTHING right! If I think that being "right" on every issue will get me to heaven, I have totally negated the sacrifice of Christ. But I also understand the other side that I cannot be selfish and do "what I want to do" and expect God to understand and overlook my sins. With all humility I submit myself to God and ask his forgiveness if I am doing something wrong. And if I am, if one violation will condemn my soul, then we are all in trouble.
^^^^To add to this the Pharisees were right. Jesus acknowledged this when he said in Matt. 23 "do as they tell you". But they were not righteous, "Except your righteous exceed the Scribes and Pharisees...". In my 62 years, I heard too many "righteousness by works" sermons. Too many being in the "right church doing all the right things" group salvation sermons.
My point was not to take the safe side in reality. My point was to take the safe side using your other arguments. I think it is much more clear cut than you make it Kevin. I only meant that when I used your arguments. From the scripture, we have no authority and therefore no right to do it. That isn't a sife side,...it's the only side.
an exhaustive list: a list that contains all of the objects in discussion, in this case Praises. So if you argue the NT is an exhaustive list of praises, and applauding God is not in the NT, then it is not authorized.
Kevin I have a serious question: when you read James 5, and take for example the verse that says, "is anyone cheerful, let him sing.." or "is any one sufferin, let him pray" etc. My question is, are those commands in the same way you view Eph 5:19? Because it seems to me, that if they are commands, then anytime we are cheerful and not singing, we are disobeying the command in James 5:13. Thanks for your help
Hey, just wanted to let you know that there is a group right here on pleonast all about authority. I think you could get a good discussion going through that group. The name of the group, as you would expect, is "Authority". You can search for it or get to it through my blog if you like. There are already many existing discussions there and you can start your own, if you prefer.
Fulmer has been offered a football related job in the front office. My guess is it will be recruiting related. Perhaps, Director of Football Operations. Because he is well like by many fans because of his years at UTK, he could be used for fundraising purposes
In Leviticus 10, we see the story of Nadab and Abihu. These two sons of Aaron offered fire as worship to the Lord. The scripture isn't very descriptive of what they did exactly other than they added incense to the fire, but the writer of Leviticus described this fire as "unauthorized fire before the Lord". What they had done, they had not been commanded to do. What was their motive? We cannot be clear on that, but what we can be clear on is that they did something the never were commanded to do. As a result of their disobedience, they were consumed by the fire for punishment, and ultimately killed for their iniquity.
This story teaches us many things. I think the main thing we can take from it is reverence. Reverence to those things we are commanded to do. Reverence in the sense that we do them as we are told, and not change them like Nadab and Abihu had done. Various passages in the NT have given us the idea that God's word is sacred and is all we need in order to decipher what He would have us to do as Christians. Adding to it or taking from it would be a strike against the reverence that we are to show Him.
In the NT we are commanded to worship the Lord is several ways. Colossians 3:16, "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God." Likewise, Paul also tells the Ephesians in 5:19 "addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart," Who knew that these two passages would cause so much disagreement between Christians. Instrumental music is an issue that has clouded the church for years.
Let's take a look at the NT scriptures on singing:
Acts 16:25 is the scene where Paul and Silas are singing in prison. Obviously no instruments are present, how could there be in prison. What we do want to look at is that the prisoners were listening to them. What were they listening to? The singing. Why? The message of the lyrics.
I Corinthians 14:15 uses the phrase "sing praise..."
Hebrews 2:12 also mentions praise in the context of singing.
James 5:13 expresses the idea of joy in conjunction with singing.
What is the purpose of singing? To praise God, to teach and admonish (Ephesians and Colossians), and to express joy.
What is NOT the purpose of music in worship?
It is not for entertainment. It is not meant to be extravagent or made to be pleasing from a human stand point. It is for these reasons I often question things such as the FC Chorus. Certainly list of purposes that we got from above, there is no need for instruments to carry out those purposes. They have no positive effect and can even have a negative effect.
Certainly they add a more pleasing sound. Certainly we enjoy it more, from a human standpoint. But how does it help with the praising of God, the teaching, the admonishing, and the expression of joy which we use the words all for. There is no just reason for them.
Now...let's look at some major arguments that people will give in support of instruments and see what the scripture and outside evidence will say about them.
WELL MR. KEVIN, GOD LIKED INSTRUMENTS IN THE OT, WHY WOULDN'T HE LIKE THEM NOW?
Consider for a moment the story of Moses (Exodus 17:5-6 and Numbers 20:7-8). At first he was told to strike the rock to get the water to flow. He obeyed this. The second time, he was told to speak to the rock. He disobeyed and struck the rock instead. God did not allow him into the promised land as a result.
God certainly does give a distinction between the Old and New Testaments. God wants your heart. We find ourselves so wrapped up in the sound that we forget that we could sing a beautiful song and hit every note, but if we didn't mean the words we sung, it was pointless.
IT'S ALWAYS BEEN A TRADITION IN OUR CHURCH MR.KEVIN...WHY WOULD YOU SAY IT'S WRONG NOW?
History reveals otherwise. Instruments were not introduced until 670 AD by Pope Vitalian to the Roman Catholic Church. This is approximately 640 years after the establishment of the NT church in Acts 2. Other denominational church fathers had this to say:
Adam Clarke (Methodist commentator) - Commentary, Vol. IV, p. 684: “ I am an old man, and an old minister; and I here declare that I never knew them productive of any good in the worship of God; and have had reason to believe they were productive of much evil. Music, as a science, I esteem and admire: but instruments of music in the house of God I abominate and abhor.”
John Wesley (Founder of Methodism) - Quoted in Adam Clarke’s Commentary, Vol. IV, p. 684: “I have no objection to instruments of music in our chapels, provided they are neither HEARD nor SEEN.”
John Calvin (Founder of Presbyterianism, incidentally...not intentionally) - Commentary on Psalms 33: “Musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law.”
Now these denominations all have instruments, but from the beginning, even the leaders of those denominations were against them.
MR. KEVIN...in my STRONG'S CONCORDANCE...THE WORD FOR SING HERE "PSALLO" MEANS TO BE PLUCKED. THAT MEANS INSTRUMENT!
First of all, Strong's is not always reliable. It is actually the laughing stock of a lot of Greek scholars. "ψαλλω" which is "psallo" is translated as "sing" in the NT. If it meant to be plucked, it would say that. BDAG shows in the history that this word was used in the LXX (Greek translation of the OT) in this "plucked" fashion about 50% of the time. However, in the NT, the word means to sing 100% of the time.
MR. KEVIN, I LIKE IT IN MY WORSHIP TO GOD. I FEEL EDIFIED, SO WOULDN'T GOD WANT ME TO HAVE IT?
Remember Nadab and Abihu. They offered what they chose. God didn't choose it. As a result, He didn't accept it either and they were punished by death! Who are you trying to please with your worship? God or man?
WELL MR. KEVIN, I DONT FIND ANYTHING WRONG WITH IT...IT'S PROBABLY OK.
II Corinthians 3:5-6 points us to the simple fact that our human wisdom is not enough. God knows what is best. If we did things our way, things would be much different and we wouldn't even need the Scripture. The scriptures are there to instruct us (II Tim. 3:16-17). If we can go around it, what would be its purpose?
In conclusion, singing is the only thing authorized in the NT for worship to the Lord with music. It has a purpose: to praise, edify, teach, admonish, and express joy. There is no scripture justification for instruments being used in worship, and they would simply be additions.
At this point, I've said all I will say on this subject. For those in past discussions, I will allow comments. I've said enough on the topic, and hope that maybe this article will clear up some things. I truly believe if you go into the scripture with an open heart and try not to find what you want, you will be able to truly discern the message God intended for us. Please make comments with thought, logic, but most importantly scripture.
great article by the way, i saw your comments on psallo on rusty's blog and just read through them, never heard that before but you are absolutely right- very powerful. thanks for a awesome post
Yeah, I hear guys like long hair... so there it is. Tell your friends ;) I know feel like I must read your blog to see what everyone is talking about ...
Wow, I was going to play devil's advocate with the strongs thing... but you already answered it. I think this was the best argument I've ever heard about this subject. Good job! :)
haha. if only you knew the last guy i dated, and how young he was. It is now a running joke with my friends and relatives here :) Character is more important than age (unless they're in highschool) haha
I think your urge to turn the discussion to one focussed on biblical authority is a good idea. It is obvious that there are a wide variety of hermenuetics being used, and without a common approach to authority it seems as if all other discussions will be fruitless. Good job at getting to the root, I'd be up for such a discussion. Let me know if there is anything you want or need me to do/help with
Kevin, you have been much easier to talk to lately, and more open for discussion and a lot less accusitory. Thanks. Ya know, I was talking to my mom, who at this point is not even comfortable with classrooms in a church building, and talking to her about these things. And one thing we talked about is that the Bible is Living. Every time you read it, its God speaking to you for where your at in you life now. You can read it once and a year later read it again and it means something to you then that you didn't catch before. Its like its speaking to you at whatever point in your life that your at, and telling you what you need. you know what I mean?
Hey Kevin, this is Adam, your suitemate. I was talking to Jeremy last night, and wanted to talk to you about something :). Can you email me at virtuality2112@gmail.com so we can talk?
great thoughts! I don't know if its something you'd be interested in doing or not but if you ever had the time I'd really like to see a post or hear your thoughts on institutionalism. Especially when it comes to how the church uses their money in reguard to orphans homes, ect. and having a fellowship hall, kitchen, activity building, ect. Obviously I think we would have the same view about theses things but I'm in a discussion with someone of a more liberal mindset and these things have come up. Its always good to have additional references to go to and maybe the way something is stated by someone else could have more of an opinion than the way I would put it. If you'd rather email me than post my email is katie008@hotmail.com just let me know you emailed something since it may show up in junk mail. I know you're busy but if you ever get the time I'd really appreciate it! Thanks! :)
whodoyouthink...how else would you answer a question like that? Personally, I don't like to use Greek in lessons because generally those that use it in a discussion have a limited or poor use of the language. All that comment was there for was to answer the common statement that "the Greek word psallo means to be plucked". If you would like to make a worthwhile comment (even in disagreement), at least make it logical. The only reason the word "psallo" is in the discussion is because denominations try and use to prove a point that isn't there. Otherwise, I wouldn't use it. Do you disagree that authority comes from God? I'd like to see your argument for that.
I never said I didn't know what you were talking about. What I mean is that your statements do nothing to prove anything, only distract from the scriptures. Also, I don't think because someone disagrees with me they do not have an open heart. However, someone that disagrees with the Lord's words doesn't have an open heart.
Leviticus 10 is a perfect application for need of authority in worship. You can always twist "definitions" like others have for "psallo" in the past. And yes, flowery words are a distraction. There is no substance in what you say.
Hey Kevin, Jeremy Jones said this on my blog, "I do agree that the command to assemble cannot be the only reason for a building or else things such as classes are outside of that authority. In fact, a baptistery would also be out of that realm of authority." Didn't you say that the authority for a church building was an expedient to the command to assemble?
